The Wilds

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Re: The Wilds

#31501

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!

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Re: The Wilds

#31502

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 11:22
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 08:08
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 07:55
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 07:36
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 07:10
On the flip side, Toni is basically a blank canvas in many respects. As daunting as it might feel to tackle a character without the road map of extensive canon to guide you, that absence of a road map allows a writer to give Toni a backstory that's exactly of the complexity they feel comfortable executing.

For me, Shelby’s issues are simplified by many writers and I'm just going to assume they do it because a less layered characterization is easier to write fics about. Same applies to Shoni, which is also simplified. Toni’s issues are complex sure, but her backstory specifics are minimal, and so any simplifying on the part of a writer here isn't the same kind of simplifying, it's more them choosing to just not make her have so many layers in the first place. And by all I mean, say it was the other way around and it was Shelby needing the backstory to be invented, a writer might well have have come up with Becca as a feature, but they might not necessarily have also added in the additional layer of Becca's death. Any writer who doesn't feel confident weaving in that death is technically simplifying Shelby. Whereas Toni doesn't have things that need to be left out in order to make her easier to write, she instead has things that need to be added in before she becomes difficult to write.
You run into the potential of someone's 'blank road map' not matching with others, though. It is very hard to make up a back story for a canon character and have it flow with every reader. Just look at this board, everyone has their own ideas of canon and what's what. Making up an entire back story for Toni could possibly really not mesh with certain readers. You run into the idea of pissing people off if it doesn't match their headcanon. That's why Shelby's back story is so easy to shove into a story... we saw it.

Not saying people shouldn't at least try and give Toni a deeper story that focuses on her issues with her mom and abandonment and her anger. They should. I just understand why people don't. The damn official writers of the show didn't bother, so I can see why fanfic writers might find it daunting to have to make up a story for her every time. A lot of this falls on the writers failing to properly develop Toni IMO.
It doesn't seem to me like people are taking issue with the specifics of Toni’s back story though, but rather how that back story interacts with Shelby/Shoni. Nobody needs to create Toni’s issues, we saw them just like we saw Shelby’s. The difference is that Shelby’s issues came with their explanation that we also saw. Writing Toni a back story is to write the reasons for why she is the way she is, we already know the outcome of her childhood because the show gave us that much at least. It's the working backward to give us the reasons for the outcome that writers would need to do. But the reasons themselves aren't are the important bit, it doesn't really matter if a writer headcanons Toni being in foster care from the age of 4 or 14 for example, and I can't imagine anyone getting pissed off at detail like that clashing with their own headcanon. The important bit is how Toni’s issues bounce off Shelby, and every writer is having to write that whether they decide to fill in Toni’s backstory or not.
Again, it's much harder for a writer to connect with a backstory we never saw. We saw Shelby's. We connected with it. Lots of people love Toni and connect with her too, but you're deluding yourself if you don't think the writers failed giving her a proper backstory that explored why she is the way she is. Do you honestly not see why that might be a big reason why fic writers aren't exploring Toni's anger issues in depth? Because we never freaking saw it. It was all "tell and not show" when it came to Toni.

It doesn't mean fanfic writers can't do it themselves if they really wanted to, but the writers also failed Toni first, so it's not a surprise to me that Toni's backstory/flaws suffer in fics.
the show definitely didn’t give toni a proper backstory the way it did shelby, and i can totally understand that a writer wouldn’t feel comfortable inventing that backstory.

but the toni we saw on the island wasn’t perfect either, in s1 or s2. we don’t need to know her backstory to know her flaws and to know why the issues she’s facing could cause problems between her and shelby — especially before they get together but even once they’re already together. i think the problem a lot of people are seeing isn’t that toni’s backstory isn’t explored, but that her flaws are all but erased (or if they’re included, they’re usually brushed over pretty quickly)., and she’s made practically perfect, which we know isn’t the case from cannon. her flaws could be explored or at least included without the writer having to invent anything new for her character
Part of the problem, and why I highlighted not focusing on Toni's backstory in the show might be a big reason why the fics are also failing her, is because we saw Shelby's story and were able to connect with it. Someone earlier said that they always feel bad for Shelby in fics, even when she's shouldering most of the blame and a lot of that is because we the audience saw how horrible her life was. That might be why fic writers lean into it... because it IS sympathetic. You can make Shelby's issues a thing and still feel bad for her because we saw how tortured it made her in the show.

For example, when Shelby doesn't signal the boat in the show, this is supposed to be seen as a flaw of hers, but because we saw her story with her father, we completely understood why she reacted the way she did. We sympathized with her right away, because duh, you're supposed to. Then take Toni... at least for me, personally, when she didn't say ILY right away, I was like huh?? Okayyyy. It wasn't until the conversation with Martha where I sort of got where they were going with it, but again, it didn't make nearly as much sense or tug at my heart the same way Shelby's scene with the boat, because I never saw why Toni feels so abandoned, only heard Toni mention it like 3 times total in the show. This is just ME. Others may feel differently, but I feel Toni is a much more open blank space than Shelby is, and it often leads to projection on her by people in fandom, why so many headcanon her as non-binary, despite nothing there in canon, why people get up in arms over if femme Toni in Shelby's dream was out of character or not, and why so many of her so called "flaws" get erased in fics and she gets Mary Sue'd. The show didn't do a great job with telling her story IMO and as a result, she's probably the least developed of the girls, sans maybe Nora just because Nora didn't get a season 2 to develop any.

This absolutely doesn't excuse the reason for placing blame solely on Shelby in fics, and I said before, if a writer was talented enough, they'd branch out a bit and try and make Toni's flaws stand out while also being sympathetic toward her, but I can 100% understand why Toni is written the way she is in fics, because the canon didn't give us nearly as much to work with as it did Shelby.

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Re: The Wilds

#31503

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Guest wrote:
17 May 2023, 17:48
Guest wrote:
17 May 2023, 16:55
Guest wrote:
17 May 2023, 16:50
Guest wrote:
17 May 2023, 16:36
Guest wrote:
17 May 2023, 16:21
You are delusional if you believe that the posts in this forum constitute 'useful feedback' lmao.

It's just people repeatedly whining that Shelby's issues are the source of conflict in all Shoni fics. But there are no suggestions/prompts for how to avoid this without removing all of Shelby's back story. And fics where Shelby doesn't struggle with her sexuality are criticised too! It's not useful at all, it's just moaning
This. It isn’t concrit if you just complain with no solution. What would you like to see changed, how would you prefer them to be written? It’s one thing for one or both of them to be completely ooc that bugs you, but every story won’t be canon so how do you suggest making them feel more true to character?

💯

Do they want fics where Shelby's family are cool with her being gay and therefore she has no trepidation about being out? Or where she instantly cuts them off without hesitation when she gets with Toni? Or is it more fics where Toni doesn't mind Shelby being closeted forever and therefore there's no conflict? Genuinely curious how you would write a semi realistic angsty fic which meets the 'Shelby's issues cannot be a key source of conflict' requirement that's being asked.
Shelby’s issues can absolutely be a key source of conflict. No one has ever said they couldn’t. What people find difficult is that more often than not, it’s only Shelby’s issues that cause conflict. We don’t often see Toni’s flaws explored much at all, let alone in a way that causes any real conflict between the two. It’d just be nice to see a little more balance is all
I can actually see where you're coming from with this, and I think it comes from the fact that's it's quite easy to write Shelby's internalised homophobia as a source of conflict - as in, it's easy to picture how that might cause problems in their relationship. But it's not as easy with Toni's flaws. She has anger problems, but she never really loses her shit with Shelby in the show. And I don't think people would really want to read a version of Toni that's violent/abusive to Shelby anyway. Toni also has low self worth and fear of abandonment. But these things are harder to write as a source of conflict in the relationship. Toni running away, cutting Shelby off, not saying I love you... These things would be harder for me to write a compelling story out of. I wouldn't know where to start. I'm not a pro writer, and fanfic is just meant to be fun, creative expression, not difficult assignments to slog through.

And I'm not saying people can't express frustration that they're not getting what they want from fics. I just hope this will help to explain that lack of balance a little. And maybe people will think twice about some of the harsher comments...
Can I say something? I think I agree with you in here. Toni's problems are harder to write because they need a good storyline and many layers so people don't end up hating Toni or the fanfic itself. The thing is, there are some good examples of authors who did this, so it is not impossible. One example is "drive all night ‘til I let down my guard (you taste so good and you look like art)" from Blake0tyler who unfortunately abandoned the fic, but that one was exploring beautifully and interestingly Toni's fear of abandonment, difficulty to share emotions.

I just hope that more stories try to do this, so the fics will be more balanced.

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Re: The Wilds

#31504

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst

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Re: The Wilds

#31505

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
I agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst if anyone was interested in exploring them

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Re: The Wilds

#31506

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I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background

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Re: The Wilds

#31507

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:16
I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background
yeah it seems like what everyone can agree on is that shelby is treated worse overall in a way that’s not really fair to her character. even if the reason is sometimes understandable, i think it’s still fair for people to find it frustrating.

and sometimes it doesn’t even come across like people are just writing her that way because it’s an easier source of conflict, but that they’re going out of their way to make her really awful. i don’t think this is because they dislike her (even if sometimes it feels that way), but instead i just think it’s a way to really deepen the conflict.

i really do understand why people tend to write those stories, but it doesn’t make me hate it any less as a shelby fan. and it won’t make me any less frustrated to see it over and over again. and it won’t make me any less inclined to come on here and vent, especially about the ones that make her really terrible, have all the girls hate her, etc

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Re: The Wilds

#31508

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:16
I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background
I mean, that's your opinion. I don't personally feel that way about shoni fics, otherwise I wouldn't bother reading them. I think most fics do a good balance of providing you with a need to sympathize with Shelby's issues, while also pointing out they're sometimes flaws. There's a few fics that I think fail at this, and they have been brought up here, but it's hardly what I'd say is the majority of shoni fics. I think a lot of the complaints people have here are overblown. Most fics these days have Shelby and Fatin as besties, not really what I'd consider a trend of all the girls hating Shelby.

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Re: The Wilds

#31509

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:36
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:16
I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background
I mean, that's your opinion. I don't personally feel that way about shoni fics, otherwise I wouldn't bother reading them. I think most fics do a good balance of providing you with a need to sympathize with Shelby's issues, while also pointing out they're sometimes flaws. There's a few fics that I think fail at this, and they have been brought up here, but it's hardly what I'd say is the majority of shoni fics. I think a lot of the complaints people have here are overblown. Most fics these days have Shelby and Fatin as besties, not really what I'd consider a trend of all the girls hating Shelby.
I don’t think the authors hate Shelby or anything, but there are plenty that have the girls judge her harshly. It’s true that there are a lot now that have her and Fatin as good friends, but even those often have Fatin giving more tough love than sympathy, and I just don’t see those nearly as often when it comes to Toni. And there are plenty of others that don’t have her as friends with any of the other girls and even have them dislike her. I didn’t say it was the majority, but there are plenty that have someone literally say Toni deserves better than Shelby, using those exact words. It’s a little difficult for me to believe some stories are asking for us to sympathize with Shelby in those types of moments — though that doesn’t mean there aren’t any stories that ask us to sympathize with Shelby because of course those exist as well.

And I agree that most stories definitely don’t have an overall goal to have everyone hate Shelby, but some do make her out to be pretty bad for a while even if it turns around later. Nothing wrong at all with pointing out her flaws, but they’re often exaggerated and treated differently by the other characters than Toni’s are — if those are even explored at all

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Re: The Wilds

#31510

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 23:00
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:36
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:16
I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background
I mean, that's your opinion. I don't personally feel that way about shoni fics, otherwise I wouldn't bother reading them. I think most fics do a good balance of providing you with a need to sympathize with Shelby's issues, while also pointing out they're sometimes flaws. There's a few fics that I think fail at this, and they have been brought up here, but it's hardly what I'd say is the majority of shoni fics. I think a lot of the complaints people have here are overblown. Most fics these days have Shelby and Fatin as besties, not really what I'd consider a trend of all the girls hating Shelby.
I don’t think the authors hate Shelby or anything, but there are plenty that have the girls judge her harshly. It’s true that there are a lot now that have her and Fatin as good friends, but even those often have Fatin giving more tough love than sympathy, and I just don’t see those nearly as often when it comes to Toni. And there are plenty of others that don’t have her as friends with any of the other girls and even have them dislike her. I didn’t say it was the majority, but there are plenty that have someone literally say Toni deserves better than Shelby, using those exact words. It’s a little difficult for me to believe some stories are asking for us to sympathize with Shelby in those types of moments — though that doesn’t mean there aren’t any stories that ask us to sympathize with Shelby because of course those exist as well.

And I agree that most stories definitely don’t have an overall goal to have everyone hate Shelby, but some do make her out to be pretty bad for a while even if it turns around later. Nothing wrong at all with pointing out her flaws, but they’re often exaggerated and treated differently by the other characters than Toni’s are — if those are even explored at all
this isn’t wrong because i don’t think i could count on two hands the number of times i’ve read a story where shelby or toni or one of the other girls makes a comment saying that shelby isn’t good enough for toni. she’s definitely meant to be sympathetic in most stories by the end, but i don’t buy that she’s meant to be considered fully sympathetic the whole way through in a good amount of them

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Re: The Wilds

#31511

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Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 23:06
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 23:00
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:36
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:16
I get where people are coming from when they say that because we’ve seen Shelby’s background means it’s okay to dive into her flaws more deeply, but I don’t fully agree.

I think a lot of fics aren’t really asking us to sympathize with Shelby; they’re asking us to sympathize with Toni. Shelby’s backstory is just used as a way for us not to actively root against her. For example, in the few fics where Toni does mess up, she’s usually met with sympathy from the other girls and then Shelby forgives her like right away. Whereas, I’ve read a ton of fics that have had one of the girls claim that Toni deserves better than Shelby or had Shelby face some “tough love” or whatever, and Toni is allowed to be angry with Shelby and even really lash out at her in spite of Shelby’s background
I mean, that's your opinion. I don't personally feel that way about shoni fics, otherwise I wouldn't bother reading them. I think most fics do a good balance of providing you with a need to sympathize with Shelby's issues, while also pointing out they're sometimes flaws. There's a few fics that I think fail at this, and they have been brought up here, but it's hardly what I'd say is the majority of shoni fics. I think a lot of the complaints people have here are overblown. Most fics these days have Shelby and Fatin as besties, not really what I'd consider a trend of all the girls hating Shelby.
I don’t think the authors hate Shelby or anything, but there are plenty that have the girls judge her harshly. It’s true that there are a lot now that have her and Fatin as good friends, but even those often have Fatin giving more tough love than sympathy, and I just don’t see those nearly as often when it comes to Toni. And there are plenty of others that don’t have her as friends with any of the other girls and even have them dislike her. I didn’t say it was the majority, but there are plenty that have someone literally say Toni deserves better than Shelby, using those exact words. It’s a little difficult for me to believe some stories are asking for us to sympathize with Shelby in those types of moments — though that doesn’t mean there aren’t any stories that ask us to sympathize with Shelby because of course those exist as well.

And I agree that most stories definitely don’t have an overall goal to have everyone hate Shelby, but some do make her out to be pretty bad for a while even if it turns around later. Nothing wrong at all with pointing out her flaws, but they’re often exaggerated and treated differently by the other characters than Toni’s are — if those are even explored at all
this isn’t wrong because i don’t think i could count on two hands the number of times i’ve read a story where shelby or toni or one of the other girls makes a comment saying that shelby isn’t good enough for toni. she’s definitely meant to be sympathetic in most stories by the end, but i don’t buy that she’s meant to be considered fully sympathetic the whole way through in a good amount of them
Yeah, I think this all ties back into the same idea that people feel they can write Shelby’s flaws more easily while still having people root for her. So that sometimes leads to her flaws being exaggerated and/or the other girls not sympathizing with her because the writer is still confident that the audience will be able to root for her in the end.

Like with a lot of the other explanations for why Shelby’s often not treated as well, I do know that it’s not malicious. But I still just really don't like it. Of course it’s not all fics, though, it’s just unfortunate that so many do that

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Re: The Wilds

#31512

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that

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Re: The Wilds

#31513

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
DA That's just writer inexperience coming through. Nobody who knows what a healthy relationship looks like would find that kind of behavior something to glorify in their writing. Though it could be argued that, when it comes to age alone, it's perfectly in character for an inexperienced 17 year old Shelby to be thinking this way because I imagine a lot of teenagers really would swoon over a partner becoming angrily territorial (was Regan an exception? Been a while since I watched those scenes).

Personally, I think that's not Shelby’s view whether teen or adult. Especially not adult. I think she would instead recogize possessiveness as an offshoot of controlling tendencies, after living with her father for so long (not saying Toni is controlling, just that Shelby would interpret there being something of a parallel to Dave). As for violence, canon didn't give us much to go on but Shelby wasn't exactly looking comfortable when Toni was destroying that shelter with an ax. If I was writing a fic in which Toni gets mad over Shelby being hit on, I'd not be writing Shelby praising Toni for it, I'd be going hard in the opposite direction, and then have the pair of them meet in the middle, so to speak, after hashing out where both of their reactions stemmed from.

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Re: The Wilds

#31514

Post by Guest »

Toni being quick to make judgements, her overprotectiveness, pushing people away out of fear of abandonment, resorting to anger when she's upset, these are all flaws I see regularly being explored in the fics I read. At the same time, barely a handful of fics have made me feel like I'm NOT supposed to sympathize with Shelby as a character. I've actually found myself getting irritated with Toni's tendency to jump to conclusions and lack of communication more often.

As for conflict resolution, Shelby being understanding and forgiving is in character for her so I actually wouldn't buy it if she did not forgive Toni easily in fics. Toni taking longer to see Shelby's side and taking longer to soften up to her is also in character for Toni. If you don't like reading the characters that way maybe you don't like the dynamic of the ship in the first place.

I actually think fics underutilize Shelby's tendency to lash out when she's provoked/under stress. We saw her do it with Becca off the island and we saw glimpses of it on the island when she kicks Toni in 1x04, tells Toni to stop with the pornographic gestures and says homosexuality is a sin in 1x06, tells Toni off when she thinks Toni told Martha they kissed in 1x08. Her tendency to have breakdowns and self harm is also not explored enough. I haven't seen anyone try to touch the "dissociative tendencies" either. I wish they'd shed light on whether this was a real trauma response or Shelby pretending to dissociate to play Faber and Young on the show. Too late for that now.

Toni's flaws are used as the catalyst for their break up in season 2, but I think the reason we don't see fic writers using it in fics is because the break up on the show felt so forced and illogical. Toni didn't say a word during the break up scene so we don't even know the real reason Toni "blamed" Shelby for the boat or if she wanted to break up with Shelby in the first place. What we see is Toni lashing out at everyone else except Shelby prior to the break up. Her motivations are too vague to be interpreted as canon flaws which can then be incorporated in fic. The only inkling we have to what it could be is the conversation she had with Martha about feeling like she's not worth shit.

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Re: The Wilds

#31515

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders

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Re: The Wilds

#31516

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 13:10
So this 'concrit' thing... people are saying they don't like that Toni's flaws are ignored in fics and she's often painted as too perfect. That is the criticism. So where is the constructive part? What are your suggestions? Do people really want to read fics where Toni is an angry and violent partner who throws her piss at Shelby?? Lol
omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.

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Re: The Wilds

#31517

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 15:09


omg a huge pet peeve of mine is when fics have shelby swooning over toni’s aggression and possessive behaviour toward her!!!!!!
agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college

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Re: The Wilds

#31518

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10


agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?

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Re: The Wilds

#31519

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 22:10


agree I hate when Shelby’s into Toni in spite of Toni treating her badly, but that’s part of what people are upset about. There are some fics that don’t make her “perfect,” but they still rarely dive into her flaws. Instead it’s mostly played as funny and glossed over because Shelby is usually written to have already liked Toni, so she doesn’t an apology or anything.

And no one said they want to see Toni be aggressive toward Shelby? There are flaws of Toni’s that could be incorporated into stories that go beyond potesmtiall just showing her “being violent” toward Shelby. If you want my suggestions, here are a few: she’s quick to judgment, her possessiveness and overprotectiveness when it comes to people she cares about, her pushing people away because she’s scared of them leaving her, her tendency toward anger when she’s unable to process her emotions, etc. And none of this is any hate toward Toni either. It’s just a few examples of ways her struggles could cause some angst
I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Exactly I feel like I see this everywhere. Even when she’s not comeplety understanding, it does feel like a lot of people approach Toni as being over a lot of her issues — or actively working through them — but I rarely see Shelby given that same grace.

And it’s not that Toni never changes at all because she does in some fics. But it’s still Shelby who’s made to be at fault really. Like I can’t name too many fics where Toni’s really held accountable for any of the issues between them in the same way — I don’t often see her apologize or have to seek Shelby’s forgiveness. But I see Shelby apologizing constantly and it often takes a while for Toni to forgive her. And again, Shelby’s literally told in a lot of fics that she’s either not good enough for Toni or that she’s constantly hurting Toni and should leave her alone. And I agree that Shelby’s background means that people will sympathize with her in spite all this, but a lot of stories use that to make her the main one at fault or to even go out of their way to make her cruel and then explain her backstory to get us to sympathize with her. Like it just seems like a lot of stories make her worse than she is — though some more than others — and make Toni better for the sake of the drama. We’re usually meant to sympathize with Toni as someone being hurt constantly by a person she cares about and to sympathize with Shelby as someone who’s got a sad backstory, but Shelby’s still the one doing the hurting and shouldering the blame in that way, which means we’re also asked to be a bit critical of her in a way that we’re not as much with Toni.

And I get that it’s possible to sympathize with Shelby through a lot of what people throw at her, but it still does feel unfair to get character to change her. And I understand why Shelby fans would like to see a story where she’s not constantly apologizing

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Re: The Wilds

#31520

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 02:02


I’ve seen a lot of fics over the years having Shelby say I like it when you are angry and possessive of me in public like if someone comes onto her or something. Really hate that
Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side

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Re: The Wilds

#31521

Post by Guest »

I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry

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Re: The Wilds

#31522

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:31
I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry
It’s canon that Shelby can lash out when she’s backed into a corner and terrified. This isn’t an excuse for what she said, but she did it because she was terrified of losing her entire family because she’s a traumatized kid with an abusive father. It’s NOT canon that she’d go out of her way to be cruel to someone. Having Shelby snap at Toni when she’s afraid would be one thing, but people here are complaining about her going out of her way to be cruel, which is not at all the same thing and has 0 canon justification.

Not to mention, she regretted and learned from the Becca situation. It’s canon that she’s learned better forms of communicating when she’s afraid (ie, telling Toni about the boat even though she was scared of losing her).

There are also a lot of somewhat canon compliant ways we could make Toni super nasty in fics if we want to ignore all nuance and take the most negative interpretation of the characters possible, but that doesn’t really happen with Toni (which I’m not mad at, I just wish it wouldn’t happen with Shelby either)

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Re: The Wilds

#31523

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:31
I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry
X2 and like I mentioned in another comment, she literally says homophobic things to Toni in the mussels scene (also defence mechanism but rude), and she is very confrontational with Toni when she thinks Toni told Martha about their kiss (again, defence mechanism but rude).

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Re: The Wilds

#31524

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:31
I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry
It’s canon that Shelby can lash out when she’s backed into a corner and terrified. This isn’t an excuse for what she said, but she did it because she was terrified of losing her entire family because she’s a traumatized kid with an abusive father. It’s NOT canon that she’d go out of her way to be cruel to someone. Having Shelby snap at Toni when she’s afraid would be one thing, but people here are complaining about her going out of her way to be cruel, which is not at all the same thing and has 0 canon justification.

Not to mention, she regretted and learned from the Becca situation. It’s canon that she’s learned better forms of communicating when she’s afraid (ie, telling Toni about the boat even though she was scared of losing her).

There are also a lot of somewhat canon compliant ways we could make Toni super nasty in fics if we want to ignore all nuance and take the most negative interpretation of the characters possible, but that doesn’t really happen with Toni (which I’m not mad at, I just wish it wouldn’t happen with Shelby either)
thank you! i never understand when people bring up the becca thing to say “actually shelby would relentlessly bully toni,” as if shelby wasn’t the first person to support becca and only switched up to push becca away at a moment when she was terrified of being sent somewhere that would literally torture her because of her sexuality. does it excuse it? no. but that is not the same as her having a “cruel streak”

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Re: The Wilds

#31525

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:42
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:31
I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry
It’s canon that Shelby can lash out when she’s backed into a corner and terrified. This isn’t an excuse for what she said, but she did it because she was terrified of losing her entire family because she’s a traumatized kid with an abusive father. It’s NOT canon that she’d go out of her way to be cruel to someone. Having Shelby snap at Toni when she’s afraid would be one thing, but people here are complaining about her going out of her way to be cruel, which is not at all the same thing and has 0 canon justification.

Not to mention, she regretted and learned from the Becca situation. It’s canon that she’s learned better forms of communicating when she’s afraid (ie, telling Toni about the boat even though she was scared of losing her).

There are also a lot of somewhat canon compliant ways we could make Toni super nasty in fics if we want to ignore all nuance and take the most negative interpretation of the characters possible, but that doesn’t really happen with Toni (which I’m not mad at, I just wish it wouldn’t happen with Shelby either)
thank you! i never understand when people bring up the becca thing to say “actually shelby would relentlessly bully toni,” as if shelby wasn’t the first person to support becca and only switched up to push becca away at a moment when she was terrified of being sent somewhere that would literally torture her because of her sexuality. does it excuse it? no. but that is not the same as her having a “cruel streak”
And like no one has ever said Shelby’s perfect?? We all know she has flaws and that’s part of what makes her so interesting. People are only saying that Toni also has flaws that aren’t explored as much and that Shelby’s are at times exaggerated.

Like why bring up all Shelby’s flaws right now as if anyone has ever denied their existence? I don’t get that. Just because she’s not perfect doesn’t mean she deserves to shoulder the blame in almost all stories. Toni’s far from perfect too. But they’re both trying their best to do better

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Re: The Wilds

#31526

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:42
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 13:31
I feel like people who criticise writers for making Shelby too mean to Toni in fics forget how she treated Becca after they kissed... She was awful to her. Pretty much said she was asking to be SAd and that she was disgusted by her. That's pretty fking mean. So yeah, Shelby having a cruel steak and lashing out in a vindictive way (even if it was as a defence mechanism) is canon sorry
It’s canon that Shelby can lash out when she’s backed into a corner and terrified. This isn’t an excuse for what she said, but she did it because she was terrified of losing her entire family because she’s a traumatized kid with an abusive father. It’s NOT canon that she’d go out of her way to be cruel to someone. Having Shelby snap at Toni when she’s afraid would be one thing, but people here are complaining about her going out of her way to be cruel, which is not at all the same thing and has 0 canon justification.

Not to mention, she regretted and learned from the Becca situation. It’s canon that she’s learned better forms of communicating when she’s afraid (ie, telling Toni about the boat even though she was scared of losing her).

There are also a lot of somewhat canon compliant ways we could make Toni super nasty in fics if we want to ignore all nuance and take the most negative interpretation of the characters possible, but that doesn’t really happen with Toni (which I’m not mad at, I just wish it wouldn’t happen with Shelby either)
thank you! i never understand when people bring up the becca thing to say “actually shelby would relentlessly bully toni,” as if shelby wasn’t the first person to support becca and only switched up to push becca away at a moment when she was terrified of being sent somewhere that would literally torture her because of her sexuality. does it excuse it? no. but that is not the same as her having a “cruel streak”
And like no one has ever said Shelby’s perfect?? We all know she has flaws and that’s part of what makes her so interesting. People are only saying that Toni also has flaws that aren’t explored as much and that Shelby’s are at times exaggerated.

Like why bring up all Shelby’s flaws right now as if anyone has ever denied their existence? I don’t get that. Just because she’s not perfect doesn’t mean she deserves to shoulder the blame in almost all stories. Toni’s far from perfect too. But they’re both trying their best to do better
Right? Like should we list Toni’s flaws right now? Because there are plenty that are ignored or that could be exaggerated the way Shelby’s are. And this isn’t hate to Toni, but Shelby’s not the only one that’s flawed.

And that’s the only point people have been trying to make for this entire conversation btw. Not that Shelby’s perfect, but that she’s not the only one who’s made mistakes or who could cause conflict in their relationship

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Re: The Wilds

#31527

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 04:43


Yeah, I agree. And like I understand that some people don’t and that some might have different interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that there are some reasonably accessible flaws of Toni’s that can be incorporated as a key source of conflict.

I’m not saying Toni’s never flawed in fics Though they’re very rarely a real key or ongoing source of conflict, there are some that include some of these traits in their depictions of her. But I think it’s fair to say that in spite of that they’re often not framed as all that bad because she’s not really held accountable — sometimes they’re even framed as good things like mentioned above.

For that reason, I often find myself more frustrated by her flaws in fics more than I am with Shelby’s, and I might even sympathize with Shelby more because we see her held accountable. But that’s clearly not the impression the stories are intending to give because there’s never any change or payoff for that feeling, and I think that’s an important distinction. Whether this ends up being how we feel or not, in most stories the narrative makes it clear that we’re meant to sympathize with Toni — and Shelby at times, though she’s made out to be the one who needs to change because the conflict typically falls on her shoulders
Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.

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Re: The Wilds

#31528

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24


Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.

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Re: The Wilds

#31529

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:12
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10


There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.
this! also adding to say that the point isn’t that toni’s always “perfect” (though sometimes she is), but that toni’s rarely held accountable for her imperfections when it comes to shelby.

i get the point on the spider toni one but it doesn’t change that shelby’s the made to be pretty selfish and toni pretty selfless — not to mention the toni variants mention shelby’s a villain or villain-like in their universes too until they could save her. and in the figure skating one i agree toni isn’t always perfect to shelby, but she also isn’t really required to ask for forgiveness for any of it whereas shelby is held accountable. that fic isn’t the most outrageous example of that trend though, but it is one that makes it really clear the author is a toni stan lol. but anyway their dynamic in that one probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a vacuum. the problem isn’t with that fic specifically (or any of the ones listed) but with the overall trend of these storylines

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Re: The Wilds

#31530

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:20
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:12
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46


Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.
this! also adding to say that the point isn’t that toni’s always “perfect” (though sometimes she is), but that toni’s rarely held accountable for her imperfections when it comes to shelby.

i get the point on the spider toni one but it doesn’t change that shelby’s the made to be pretty selfish and toni pretty selfless — not to mention the toni variants mention shelby’s a villain or villain-like in their universes too until they could save her. and in the figure skating one i agree toni isn’t always perfect to shelby, but she also isn’t really required to ask for forgiveness for any of it whereas shelby is held accountable. that fic isn’t the most outrageous example of that trend though, but it is one that makes it really clear the author is a toni stan lol. but anyway their dynamic in that one probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a vacuum. the problem isn’t with that fic specifically (or any of the ones listed) but with the overall trend of these storylines
I agree. And I think a lot of people are saying the same thing in that a in lot of stories conflict comes from Shelby’s issues — and some of them do exaggerate those issues but not all — and then they explore her backstory to explain why she is how she is. So she’s still ultimately sympathetic in these fics.

But I think where people have gotten frustrated is that sometimes it’d be nice not to see a story where her flaws are explored more in-depth than everyone else’s and where she’s not the one constantly messing up, which isn’t to say there’s anything wrong with a story where she’s in the wrong in and of itself, it’s just the fact there are so many that do that that’s frustrating

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Re: The Wilds

#31531

Post by Guest »

After all the complaining about Toni always being the hero, I haven't seen anyone say anything positive about the new fic where Shelby saves Toni from being SA'd. It looked like they broke up in the past because of Toni's flaws too. I hope the author continues writing it. The first chapter was promising.

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Re: The Wilds

#31532

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:20
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:12
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07


Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.
this! also adding to say that the point isn’t that toni’s always “perfect” (though sometimes she is), but that toni’s rarely held accountable for her imperfections when it comes to shelby.

i get the point on the spider toni one but it doesn’t change that shelby’s the made to be pretty selfish and toni pretty selfless — not to mention the toni variants mention shelby’s a villain or villain-like in their universes too until they could save her. and in the figure skating one i agree toni isn’t always perfect to shelby, but she also isn’t really required to ask for forgiveness for any of it whereas shelby is held accountable. that fic isn’t the most outrageous example of that trend though, but it is one that makes it really clear the author is a toni stan lol. but anyway their dynamic in that one probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a vacuum. the problem isn’t with that fic specifically (or any of the ones listed) but with the overall trend of these storylines
I agree. And I think a lot of people are saying the same thing in that a in lot of stories conflict comes from Shelby’s issues — and some of them do exaggerate those issues but not all — and then they explore her backstory to explain why she is how she is. So she’s still ultimately sympathetic in these fics.

But I think where people have gotten frustrated is that sometimes it’d be nice not to see a story where her flaws are explored more in-depth than everyone else’s and where she’s not the one constantly messing up, which isn’t to say there’s anything wrong with a story where she’s in the wrong in and of itself, it’s just the fact there are so many that do that that’s frustrating
i think it’s because a lot of fics are only in one pov now. If it’s a Shelby pov fic it’s hard to really dig deep into Toni’s flaws because you don’t see her internal dialogue

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Re: The Wilds

#31533

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:31
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:20
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:12
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03


Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.
this! also adding to say that the point isn’t that toni’s always “perfect” (though sometimes she is), but that toni’s rarely held accountable for her imperfections when it comes to shelby.

i get the point on the spider toni one but it doesn’t change that shelby’s the made to be pretty selfish and toni pretty selfless — not to mention the toni variants mention shelby’s a villain or villain-like in their universes too until they could save her. and in the figure skating one i agree toni isn’t always perfect to shelby, but she also isn’t really required to ask for forgiveness for any of it whereas shelby is held accountable. that fic isn’t the most outrageous example of that trend though, but it is one that makes it really clear the author is a toni stan lol. but anyway their dynamic in that one probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a vacuum. the problem isn’t with that fic specifically (or any of the ones listed) but with the overall trend of these storylines
I agree. And I think a lot of people are saying the same thing in that a in lot of stories conflict comes from Shelby’s issues — and some of them do exaggerate those issues but not all — and then they explore her backstory to explain why she is how she is. So she’s still ultimately sympathetic in these fics.

But I think where people have gotten frustrated is that sometimes it’d be nice not to see a story where her flaws are explored more in-depth than everyone else’s and where she’s not the one constantly messing up, which isn’t to say there’s anything wrong with a story where she’s in the wrong in and of itself, it’s just the fact there are so many that do that that’s frustrating
i think it’s because a lot of fics are only in one pov now. If it’s a Shelby pov fic it’s hard to really dig deep into Toni’s flaws because you don’t see her internal dialogue
Yeah that’s the thing. There are lots of explanations that are reasonably understandable, but it doesn’t necessarily make it less frustrating to see

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31534

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:56
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:31
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:39
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:20
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:12


I don’t understand that interpretation of the mussel scene at all. She makes a comment about how she’s been taught homosexuality is a sin and then immediately apologized, tries to make it up to all the girls, and insists to Toni that she doesn’t hate her. She goes out of her way to try to help Toni collect firewood to prove it. That doesn’t mean what she said is excusable. But it’s a far cry from her going out of her way to seek Toni out when she’s minding her business, bully her, and kick her out of a bar.

It’s canon behavior that she lashes out when she feels backed into a corner, not just because. And no one said Shelby’s unlikeable in all these fics. It’s just that Toni’s usually painted as the hero — even if she’s not perfect, her imperfections are now typically what causes the real conflict between her and Shelby — and Shelby’s the one causing the problems that exist between them — even if she’s still sympathetic.
this! also adding to say that the point isn’t that toni’s always “perfect” (though sometimes she is), but that toni’s rarely held accountable for her imperfections when it comes to shelby.

i get the point on the spider toni one but it doesn’t change that shelby’s the made to be pretty selfish and toni pretty selfless — not to mention the toni variants mention shelby’s a villain or villain-like in their universes too until they could save her. and in the figure skating one i agree toni isn’t always perfect to shelby, but she also isn’t really required to ask for forgiveness for any of it whereas shelby is held accountable. that fic isn’t the most outrageous example of that trend though, but it is one that makes it really clear the author is a toni stan lol. but anyway their dynamic in that one probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a vacuum. the problem isn’t with that fic specifically (or any of the ones listed) but with the overall trend of these storylines
I agree. And I think a lot of people are saying the same thing in that a in lot of stories conflict comes from Shelby’s issues — and some of them do exaggerate those issues but not all — and then they explore her backstory to explain why she is how she is. So she’s still ultimately sympathetic in these fics.

But I think where people have gotten frustrated is that sometimes it’d be nice not to see a story where her flaws are explored more in-depth than everyone else’s and where she’s not the one constantly messing up, which isn’t to say there’s anything wrong with a story where she’s in the wrong in and of itself, it’s just the fact there are so many that do that that’s frustrating
i think it’s because a lot of fics are only in one pov now. If it’s a Shelby pov fic it’s hard to really dig deep into Toni’s flaws because you don’t see her internal dialogue
Yeah that’s the thing. There are lots of explanations that are reasonably understandable, but it doesn’t necessarily make it less frustrating to see
plus i’ve definitely seen stories the past from toni’s pov that explore shelby’s issues. i think plenty do actually because shelby is still usually the one at fault and needs to apologize/explain. i think cowboy like me is a decent example of a story from shelby’s pov that still explores some of toni’s background/faults

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Re: The Wilds

#31535

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:29
After all the complaining about Toni always being the hero, I haven't seen anyone say anything positive about the new fic where Shelby saves Toni from being SA'd. It looked like they broke up in the past because of Toni's flaws too. I hope the author continues writing it. The first chapter was promising.
I really liked this fic. I did think it was quite jarring to read due to the pretty horrible subject matter (what Shelby saved Toni from). And also Toni being the one in danger/distress when it's usually the other way round. But yeah, it made me super curious what their relationship was like before, if they got back with each other after. Hope we get to see more.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31536

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 20:49
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:29
After all the complaining about Toni always being the hero, I haven't seen anyone say anything positive about the new fic where Shelby saves Toni from being SA'd. It looked like they broke up in the past because of Toni's flaws too. I hope the author continues writing it. The first chapter was promising.
I really liked this fic. I did think it was quite jarring to read due to the pretty horrible subject matter (what Shelby saved Toni from). And also Toni being the one in danger/distress when it's usually the other way round. But yeah, it made me super curious what their relationship was like before, if they got back with each other after. Hope we get to see more.
I agree. Idk if the original post was meant to be passive aggressive or not (lol), but it was a well-written fic for sure — though of course in spite of any complaints, there definitely are a lot of talented writers in the Shoni fandom. And fwiw, another one that’s dark but great imo is “Love is Only a Heartbeat Away” — it has angst but not at either girl’s expense. I think people discuss ones like those slightly less though because they are so dark and jarring. But for those who are comfortable with that kind of subject matter, both are really interesting so far!

That said, I didn’t really think this new one gave much insight yet into who had messed up in their relationship in the past, but maybe I missed some hints that it had been Toni idk. Either way, it was interesting that so far it’s seemed to present a bit of a different perspective on Shelby and Shoni’s dynamic

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Re: The Wilds

#31537

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 14:03
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 12:07
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:46
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 08:10
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 06:24


Da I don't feel this way. Most fics have both of them change for the better because of each other. I think the ways in which Toni changes are less dramatic than the ways in which Shelby changes, which is why I can see why this might be the take away. Calming down and getting over abandonment issues to let someone in is not as much of an outwardly visible change as embracing your sexuality and standing up to your homophobic family, but that doesn't mean Shelby is the only one who changes. It also hasn't been my experience that we're expected to sympathize with Toni more than Shelby. Most of the time I find myself rooting for both of them because I understand both their struggles and can see how their insecurities clash with each other's to cause the conflict.
There’s been a newer trend where Toni is completely together too and really really reallyyyy understanding of Shelby with basically none of her own issues. There was one in particular that was very well written but this was just so unbelievable especially because they were in high school and college
Which one are you talking about? Can you give other examples with the same trend?
Not sure if this is the one referenced above, but there’s the one set with both of them in college in Pittsburgh. Shelby literally says that she feels like she’s constantly hurting Toni, and Toni doesn’t argue it.

But there are also others. Even in one’s where Toni isn’t perfect overall she’s often made out to be perfect to Shelby, so they both might grow in the end, but Shelby’s still the one who’s made out to cause the issues between them, and I think that’s why her growth is more obvious. I disagree with the idea that coming to terms with your sexuality is inherently a more visible change than getting over abandonment issues because there’s a lot of conflict that could stem from Toni’s abandonment issues if it was ever overtly explored in relation to her and Shelby, which would also lead to visible growth.

And if you want examples (these are just some recent ones of the top of my head): the one where Toni wouldn’t sleep with Shelby or explain why and it was framed as Shelby’s fault (Toni has her own issues in that one, but they’re not used to have her hold any real blame in the fight they have), the stripper Shelby one where Shelby goes out of her way to be awful to Toni (there are a lot that do this though), the figure skating one which makes Toni sweet and outgoing and Shelby pretty rude to her and closed off, the multiverse Spider-Toni one which makes Shelby into a literal villain that Toni has to convince to come to the good side
Stripper Shelby does not go out of her way to be awful to Toni. She's homophobic towards her as a defence mechanism, which is canon behavior. The figure skating one, Toni is not always sweet to Shelby. She ignores her in between and gets pretty aggressive on court during games. The multiverse had multiple versions of Shelby and not all of them were villains. Not all the Toni's were perfect either. The reasoning behind the villain Shelby made her the opposite of a villain in my eyes. The theme of the story is important in this case. The author was obviously using villain Shelby as a self insert because they have been heartbroken about the cancellation.

I personally liked Shelby in all these fics and did not find her less sympathetic than Toni in any of them. I also did not think that Toni was perfect in any of them.

I haven't read the pittsburgh fic so I can't comment on that and there's been enough discussion about the other fic you mentioned.
I haven't read the Stripper Shelby fic, but I did read the figure skating one and I found both Shelby and Toni equally problematic in that fic and also both sympathetic. Nothing wrong with that one, as far as I'm concerned, except making Toni NB half way through, that was random to me.

I also loved the multiverse fic with Shelby. Shelby was hardly a villain, the fic even explains she has particles inside her that are making her act the way she is, so it's not even her fault. Shelby was lined up to be a possible Confederate in S3, so that didn't feel weird to me at all. I found Shelbald very sympathetic in that story, even more than Toni.

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Re: The Wilds

#31538

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 16:29
After all the complaining about Toni always being the hero, I haven't seen anyone say anything positive about the new fic where Shelby saves Toni from being SA'd. It looked like they broke up in the past because of Toni's flaws too. I hope the author continues writing it. The first chapter was promising.
I haven't read this one, but I wish people here would talk about the fics they do like more instead of just complaining about the ones they don't. Americas Sweetheart and Cowboy are recent ones that I've seen some praise for, but surely there has to be others.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31539

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 01:57
I really enjoyed the recent canon compliant fic about the Shoni sweater. I’ve really been hoping someone would explore more about what went down in s2 and how Shoni would find their way back to each other and this one checked a lot of boxes for me and is the closest to how I’d envision it going down.

you in my sweater
https://archiveofourown.org/works/46707 ... /117634978
Here is one I brought up yesterday that I enjoyed. With it being one of the very few canon compliant fics, I hope it gets more kudos.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31540

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 23:04
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 01:57
I really enjoyed the recent canon compliant fic about the Shoni sweater. I’ve really been hoping someone would explore more about what went down in s2 and how Shoni would find their way back to each other and this one checked a lot of boxes for me and is the closest to how I’d envision it going down.

you in my sweater
https://archiveofourown.org/works/46707 ... /117634978
Here is one I brought up yesterday that I enjoyed. With it being one of the very few canon compliant fics, I hope it gets more kudos.
Ah yeah, I just read that yesterday. I liked it and it flowed nicely with canon and I liked that it tried to explain how Toni felt during the break up. Someone mentioned earlier that the break up felt forced and I agree, it felt so dumb. One second Toni's like "it's ok Shelby, it's fine about the boat" and then two days later she blames Shelby for it all? Lol made no sense. That fic tries to make it work and they did a decent job.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31541

Post by Guest »

New canon one shot by the multiverse author where everyone finds out about Shoni after the tree incident and Shelby gets a coming out scene.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/47278363

I really like their Shelby as spider woman fic too. I hope they update it soon.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/44412 ... /111704557

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31542

Post by Guest »

these are a few one shots/short stories that I’ve liked lately, easy reads.

shoni first date

https://archiveofourown.org/works/46658200

soulmate au

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45772435

this one is by sweetheart author, sickfic

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45032 ... /113299816

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31543

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 12:44
these are a few one shots/short stories that I’ve liked lately, easy reads.

shoni first date

https://archiveofourown.org/works/46658200

soulmate au

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45772435

this one is by sweetheart author, sickfic

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45032 ... /113299816
Thanks for the recs, I hadn’t seen any of these! Really liked the first date and sickfic ones.

I really hope the sweetheart author writes more. I feel like I always really enjoy her work. Also, the author of this first date fic has a new multi chapter friends-to-lovers one. I know that not everyone on here likes that trope for Shoni, but for anyone who does, I’m enjoying it so far. It’s just one chapter right now, but it was sweet and pretty fun

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31544

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 23:18
Guest wrote:
19 May 2023, 23:04
Guest wrote:
18 May 2023, 01:57
I really enjoyed the recent canon compliant fic about the Shoni sweater. I’ve really been hoping someone would explore more about what went down in s2 and how Shoni would find their way back to each other and this one checked a lot of boxes for me and is the closest to how I’d envision it going down.

you in my sweater
https://archiveofourown.org/works/46707 ... /117634978
Here is one I brought up yesterday that I enjoyed. With it being one of the very few canon compliant fics, I hope it gets more kudos.
Ah yeah, I just read that yesterday. I liked it and it flowed nicely with canon and I liked that it tried to explain how Toni felt during the break up. Someone mentioned earlier that the break up felt forced and I agree, it felt so dumb. One second Toni's like "it's ok Shelby, it's fine about the boat" and then two days later she blames Shelby for it all? Lol made no sense. That fic tries to make it work and they did a decent job.
Yeah, same here. I also liked how they explained Shelby being a confederate. It’s how I always pictured it as well and I feel like it helps explains her reasoning. And the Shoni sweater was one of the best little things about s2, so I always enjoy it when fics find ways to include it.
New canon one shot by the multiverse author where everyone finds out about Shoni after the tree incident and Shelby gets a coming out scene.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/47278363
Thanks for the rec, somehow I missed this one! This one was sweet. And I hadn’t thought of it before but it would have made sense to have Shelby’s coming out moment after the tree incident and during the Home scene. It would’ve helped bolster her boat incident reasoning as well.

I’ll never not be mad that the show completely skipped over or glossed over so many important character development moments.

I would love to see more in-depth fics that explored Toni and Shelby’s side of the ILY story, the whole boat and break up story, and Shelby’s reasoning for agreeing be a confederate for Gretchen and how she would have handled that, and Toni dealing with her feelings after pushing Shelby away and somewhat blaming her for Martha’s stuff. Especially would love to see more fics of Toni finding out about Becca and Plano and Shelby finding out more about Toni’s past. So much of s2 was left off the table and it’s just so disappointing to know so much was squandered because the girls had such limited time.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31545

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 14:23
Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 12:44
these are a few one shots/short stories that I’ve liked lately, easy reads.

shoni first date

https://archiveofourown.org/works/46658200

soulmate au

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45772435

this one is by sweetheart author, sickfic

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45032 ... /113299816
Thanks for the recs, I hadn’t seen any of these! Really liked the first date and sickfic ones.

I really hope the sweetheart author writes more. I feel like I always really enjoy her work. Also, the author of this first date fic has a new multi chapter friends-to-lovers one. I know that not everyone on here likes that trope for Shoni, but for anyone who does, I’m enjoying it so far. It’s just one chapter right now, but it was sweet and pretty fun
Also really hoping the sweetheart author writes more! she’s definitely one of my favorite shoni writers who’s still around along with the cowboy like me writer

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31546

Post by Guest »

What’s y’all’s take on strap on Shoni smut? Lol.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31547

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
23 May 2023, 10:22
What’s y’all’s take on strap on Shoni smut? Lol.
I think it is less about it being used and more about how it is written. Sweetheart had it in a chapter, I don’t remember which, but I thought it was well done and in character. I’ve read some that rub me the wrong way, but again I think that’s less about using a strap on and more about not feeling in character.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31548

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
23 May 2023, 10:22
What’s y’all’s take on strap on Shoni smut? Lol.
I don’t like it when they have Shelby performing ‘oral’ on it

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31549

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
23 May 2023, 11:24
Guest wrote:
23 May 2023, 10:22
What’s y’all’s take on strap on Shoni smut? Lol.
I don’t like it when they have Shelby performing ‘oral’ on it
agreed. I think that goes back to the how it’s written or used. that just doesn’t seem in character for them.

Guest
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Re: The Wilds

#31550

Post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 20:35
Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 14:23
Guest wrote:
20 May 2023, 12:44
these are a few one shots/short stories that I’ve liked lately, easy reads.

shoni first date

https://archiveofourown.org/works/46658200

soulmate au

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45772435

this one is by sweetheart author, sickfic

https://archiveofourown.org/works/45032 ... /113299816
Thanks for the recs, I hadn’t seen any of these! Really liked the first date and sickfic ones.

I really hope the sweetheart author writes more. I feel like I always really enjoy her work. Also, the author of this first date fic has a new multi chapter friends-to-lovers one. I know that not everyone on here likes that trope for Shoni, but for anyone who does, I’m enjoying it so far. It’s just one chapter right now, but it was sweet and pretty fun
Also really hoping the sweetheart author writes more! she’s definitely one of my favorite shoni writers who’s still around along with the cowboy like me writer
jcat posted a new one today

https://archiveofourown.org/works/47378 ... /119385952

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