Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

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Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 23 Feb 2025, 22:15

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 23 Feb 2025, 20:10

Guest wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 16:41
DA
Anyway thats a topic for another day

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 23 Feb 2025, 20:06

Guest wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 11:19
DazzlingNova wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 02:19
Guest wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 00:05
DazzlingNova wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 18:50

Da

The theory is that women process porn differently and react "sympathetically" to the woman receiving pleasure. Straight porn is geared for men and often, if not almost always. The woman is treated abusively or in a way that wouldn't be pleasurable because the point is to cater to a male viewer who wants to imagine inflicting this stuff on somebody, so it doesn't work for most female straight viewers.

But lesbian porn is usually geared to emphasize how the receiving partner is reacting more and women respond to that. They're identifying with the pleasure more than the act.
[/spoiler]

I've heard indirectly (kinda recent-ish) that straight women are creating (directing/writing I guess) m/f porn "properly" because of the abusive nature/male gearedness, so wouldn't those women be over there supporting/watching those instead? Well if that is indeed true.
Da
Perhaps it's a question for another topic but I can't help but wonder why is male sexuality so inherently violent that porn directors had to create borderline (or less borderline) abusive porn in order to cater to their needs.

Because yes, porn will adjust to (male) viewer's preference in order to increase the content consumption, so it is safe to say that men dictate how porn movies will be directed.
So I wonder why men seem to take most pleasure in degrading, hurting and subduing women/their sexual partners.
This is a question all straight women should ask even more, it's concerning that they dont seem to give it a thought.
Hmm, I'm not sure. I haven't really thought about it. Maybe they have some kinda gene or something that women don't have and when it gets released that's when you get all that abusiveness. Maybe I'm far reaching on that theory but that's the first thing that came to mind. Porn is just a doomed industry for the women who want to be more than a "star." Straight women are so accustomed to it that they are apathetic to the behavior now.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 23 Feb 2025, 16:41

DA
Anyway thats a topic for another day

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 23 Feb 2025, 11:19

DazzlingNova wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 02:19
Guest wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 00:05
DazzlingNova wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 18:50
Guest wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 17:06

Gaping, insertion and such. I find it arousing in porn but never done it irl. Can’t imagine doing it to a girl unless she’d be absolutely into it. I’m ok with some things staying just fantasies. I’m so desensitized to porn that I usually gotta find something more unconventional to come fast, but it doesn’t mean I wanna do it to someone. Just like straight women flick their beans to lez porn but would never do sth with another woman irl.
I see. If a girl did want me to do it I wouldn't because that doesn't fit into my likes/tastes, so I'd nicely tell her that relationship wouldn't work out. I agree that some things should stay fantasies but a big portion of people don't follow that line of thinking. Hmm, I'm one of the people who unfortunately got exposed to porn very early on in my life, but fortunately I didn't like/hated it and haven't ever watched/seen it voluntarily. Honestly that's something I find a bit off putting/strange, the straight women who "bean flick" to lez porn. I don't get it because lesbian sex is something they are disgusted/repulsed by irl, so why get aroused because they are watching it on a screen. Who knows, maybe they find comfort in knowing those women are just gay/bi for pay and aren't really "like that" outside of the studio. If I did willingly watch porn I wouldn't be bean flicking to any type of porn where a man is involved in the scene or made/geared specifically for/toward males because that makes me feel disgusted/repulsed irl and seeing it on a screen.
Da

The theory is that women process porn differently and react "sympathetically" to the woman receiving pleasure. Straight porn is geared for men and often, if not almost always. The woman is treated abusively or in a way that wouldn't be pleasurable because the point is to cater to a male viewer who wants to imagine inflicting this stuff on somebody, so it doesn't work for most female straight viewers.

But lesbian porn is usually geared to emphasize how the receiving partner is reacting more and women respond to that. They're identifying with the pleasure more than the act.
I've heard indirectly (kinda recent-ish) that straight women are creating (directing/writing I guess) m/f porn "properly" because of the abusive nature/male gearedness, so wouldn't those women be over there supporting/watching those instead? Well if that is indeed true.
Da
Perhaps it's a question for another topic but I can't help but wonder why is male sexuality so inherently violent that porn directors had to create borderline (or less borderline) abusive porn in order to cater to their needs.

Because yes, porn will adjust to (male) viewer's preference in order to increase the content consumption, so it is safe to say that men dictate how porn movies will be directed.
So I wonder why men seem to take most pleasure in degrading, hurting and subduing women/their sexual partners.
This is a question all straight women should ask even more, it's concerning that they dont seem to give it a thought.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 23 Feb 2025, 02:19

Guest wrote:
23 Feb 2025, 00:05
DazzlingNova wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 18:50
Guest wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 17:06
DazzlingNova wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:58


It was very weird to me when my friend first told me about it. I didn't understand because I honestly thought that was something men were into, not lesbians.
Gaping, insertion and such. I find it arousing in porn but never done it irl. Can’t imagine doing it to a girl unless she’d be absolutely into it. I’m ok with some things staying just fantasies. I’m so desensitized to porn that I usually gotta find something more unconventional to come fast, but it doesn’t mean I wanna do it to someone. Just like straight women flick their beans to lez porn but would never do sth with another woman irl.
I see. If a girl did want me to do it I wouldn't because that doesn't fit into my likes/tastes, so I'd nicely tell her that relationship wouldn't work out. I agree that some things should stay fantasies but a big portion of people don't follow that line of thinking. Hmm, I'm one of the people who unfortunately got exposed to porn very early on in my life, but fortunately I didn't like/hated it and haven't ever watched/seen it voluntarily. Honestly that's something I find a bit off putting/strange, the straight women who "bean flick" to lez porn. I don't get it because lesbian sex is something they are disgusted/repulsed by irl, so why get aroused because they are watching it on a screen. Who knows, maybe they find comfort in knowing those women are just gay/bi for pay and aren't really "like that" outside of the studio. If I did willingly watch porn I wouldn't be bean flicking to any type of porn where a man is involved in the scene or made/geared specifically for/toward males because that makes me feel disgusted/repulsed irl and seeing it on a screen.
Da

The theory is that women process porn differently and react "sympathetically" to the woman receiving pleasure. Straight porn is geared for men and often, if not almost always. The woman is treated abusively or in a way that wouldn't be pleasurable because the point is to cater to a male viewer who wants to imagine inflicting this stuff on somebody, so it doesn't work for most female straight viewers.

But lesbian porn is usually geared to emphasize how the receiving partner is reacting more and women respond to that. They're identifying with the pleasure more than the act.
I've heard indirectly (kinda recent-ish) that straight women are creating (directing/writing I guess) m/f porn "properly" because of the abusive nature/male gearedness, so wouldn't those women be over there supporting/watching those instead? Well if that is indeed true.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 23 Feb 2025, 00:05

DazzlingNova wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 18:50
Guest wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 17:06
DazzlingNova wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:58
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:51
Wtff is this widening vaginas and fisting male crap :mask:
It was very weird to me when my friend first told me about it. I didn't understand because I honestly thought that was something men were into, not lesbians.
Gaping, insertion and such. I find it arousing in porn but never done it irl. Can’t imagine doing it to a girl unless she’d be absolutely into it. I’m ok with some things staying just fantasies. I’m so desensitized to porn that I usually gotta find something more unconventional to come fast, but it doesn’t mean I wanna do it to someone. Just like straight women flick their beans to lez porn but would never do sth with another woman irl.
I see. If a girl did want me to do it I wouldn't because that doesn't fit into my likes/tastes, so I'd nicely tell her that relationship wouldn't work out. I agree that some things should stay fantasies but a big portion of people don't follow that line of thinking. Hmm, I'm one of the people who unfortunately got exposed to porn very early on in my life, but fortunately I didn't like/hated it and haven't ever watched/seen it voluntarily. Honestly that's something I find a bit off putting/strange, the straight women who "bean flick" to lez porn. I don't get it because lesbian sex is something they are disgusted/repulsed by irl, so why get aroused because they are watching it on a screen. Who knows, maybe they find comfort in knowing those women are just gay/bi for pay and aren't really "like that" outside of the studio. If I did willingly watch porn I wouldn't be bean flicking to any type of porn where a man is involved in the scene or made/geared specifically for/toward males because that makes me feel disgusted/repulsed irl and seeing it on a screen.
Da

The theory is that women process porn differently and react "sympathetically" to the woman receiving pleasure. Straight porn is geared for men and often, if not almost always. The woman is treated abusively or in a way that wouldn't be pleasurable because the point is to cater to a male viewer who wants to imagine inflicting this stuff on somebody, so it doesn't work for most female straight viewers.

But lesbian porn is usually geared to emphasize how the receiving partner is reacting more and women respond to that. They're identifying with the pleasure more than the act.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 22 Feb 2025, 18:50

Guest wrote:
22 Feb 2025, 17:06
DazzlingNova wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:58
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:51
Wtff is this widening vaginas and fisting male crap :mask:
It was very weird to me when my friend first told me about it. I didn't understand because I honestly thought that was something men were into, not lesbians.
Gaping, insertion and such. I find it arousing in porn but never done it irl. Can’t imagine doing it to a girl unless she’d be absolutely into it. I’m ok with some things staying just fantasies. I’m so desensitized to porn that I usually gotta find something more unconventional to come fast, but it doesn’t mean I wanna do it to someone. Just like straight women flick their beans to lez porn but would never do sth with another woman irl.
I see. If a girl did want me to do it I wouldn't because that doesn't fit into my likes/tastes, so I'd nicely tell her that relationship wouldn't work out. I agree that some things should stay fantasies but a big portion of people don't follow that line of thinking. Hmm, I'm one of the people who unfortunately got exposed to porn very early on in my life, but fortunately I didn't like/hated it and haven't ever watched/seen it voluntarily. Honestly that's something I find a bit off putting/strange, the straight women who "bean flick" to lez porn. I don't get it because lesbian sex is something they are disgusted/repulsed by irl, so why get aroused because they are watching it on a screen. Who knows, maybe they find comfort in knowing those women are just gay/bi for pay and aren't really "like that" outside of the studio. If I did willingly watch porn I wouldn't be bean flicking to any type of porn where a man is involved in the scene or made/geared specifically for/toward males because that makes me feel disgusted/repulsed irl and seeing it on a screen.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 22 Feb 2025, 17:06

DazzlingNova wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:58
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 18:51
Wtff is this widening vaginas and fisting male crap :mask:
It was very weird to me when my friend first told me about it. I didn't understand because I honestly thought that was something men were into, not lesbians.
Gaping, insertion and such. I find it arousing in porn but never done it irl. Can’t imagine doing it to a girl unless she’d be absolutely into it. I’m ok with some things staying just fantasies. I’m so desensitized to porn that I usually gotta find something more unconventional to come fast, but it doesn’t mean I wanna do it to someone. Just like straight women flick their beans to lez porn but would never do sth with another woman irl.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 17 Feb 2025, 02:51

Thank you so much for taking the time to go over all my questions and answer them. I feel like I know more about this than I did, although the concept is still mind-boggling to me as to why would someone go to such lengths. I truly believed that not many things would come as a surprise to me in terms of fetishes, but I guess I underestimated the dark side of humans.
Anyways, I hope your friend is well now and that all of it was just a lesson learned the hard way. :hug:

You're very welcome anon ^_^ Same here. I didn't get it completely then and still don't now. Haha, I know what you mean! :lol: Thank you! Indeed she is alright now and it definitely was one she learned the hard way and she doesn't intend to repeat it thank goodness. I hope things are good for you and your weekend was pleasant :hug:

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 16 Feb 2025, 22:52

DazzlingNova wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:59

I want to disclaimer this so if anyone is triggered/uncomfortable, I kindly ask you to read no further or make any unnecessary comments that doesn’t go along with what’s being discussed/asked, thank you. Please excuse any typos.

This post might get kinda long so I’ll spoiler most of it. Eventually my curiosity got the better of me too anon. I just didn’t understand why there were women who wanted to do that either, so one night (in that same chatroom) I decided to ask a woman (I’ll call her Diane so it doesn’t get confusing) who was into it (which wasn’t so easy).

what's purpose of that, some women get off on that or it makes it easier afterwards to do other things or?

Psychologically does it come down to marking a territory like men do with their virgin-obsession or dominating or degrading a partner?

What are the consequences your friend suffered, like is the whole thing reversible after a while or not? Was she struggling mentally because she felt humiliated afterwards or was it due to suffering physical consequences? As I take it, it's a process and not a one-time thing?

For the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why would anyone want to hate female body so much


For the women like Diane they don’t see it that way, which I feel make up the very smallest percentage. I think the majority of them hate themselves/bodies and want to make their “outside” look like a physical manifestation of their inside, so who better than to “nurture/enhance” those negative feelings/thoughts than misogynist and weird narcissist/master manipulators.

Thank you so much for taking the time to go over all my questions and answer them. I feel like I know more about this than I did, although the concept is still mind-boggling to me as to why would someone go to such lengths. I truly believed that not many things would come as a surprise to me in terms of fetishes, but I guess I underestimated the dark side of humans.
Anyways, I hope your friend is well now and that all of it was just a lesson learned the hard way. :hug:

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 14 Feb 2025, 22:07

Guest wrote:
14 Feb 2025, 10:55
Guest wrote:
14 Feb 2025, 09:00
DazzlingNova wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 19:26
Guest wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 08:23
choking. it is weird to me. does not make me hornier AT ALL. at some point it became toxic and i over exaggerated and almost went over board... we split. best decision EVER
I'm glad you were able to get out of that relationship anon. Since we're on the subject of choking, I remember a woman from several years ago who was a member of the same server room as myself. She was divorced and in her early 40s. One day the other women in the group wanted to share their "kinks." There wasn't anything said that I would consider to be outlandish but when she logged in and caught up with what we were discussing, she tells us she's into choking. I won't bore you with all the details but this is a comment she made that I haven't forgotten, "There's no bigger high in the world than being partially unconscious and having a strong orgasm at the same time. The euphoria of feeling oxygen come back into your lungs while you're basking in the afterglow of sex is a very intimate and powerful experience." :blinkwide: That was the most creepiest thing I had ever read at that time.
It's called autoerotic asphyxiation.
Da
Exactly.
I've even heard of cases of celebrities accidentally killing themselves because they tied a belt around their neck while masturbating and later couldn't get it off.
From my experience, the woman from your chat room wasn't wrong actually. I don't like choking or being choked, but if you manage to take the air in a couple of moments before an orgasm and hold your breath just long enough to get your heart pumping faster, you will experience a much stronger orgasm. The release is just otherworldly.
Isn't that something. Well, I've learned something new today.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 14 Feb 2025, 10:55

Guest wrote:
14 Feb 2025, 09:00
DazzlingNova wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 19:26
Guest wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 08:23
choking. it is weird to me. does not make me hornier AT ALL. at some point it became toxic and i over exaggerated and almost went over board... we split. best decision EVER
I'm glad you were able to get out of that relationship anon. Since we're on the subject of choking, I remember a woman from several years ago who was a member of the same server room as myself. She was divorced and in her early 40s. One day the other women in the group wanted to share their "kinks." There wasn't anything said that I would consider to be outlandish but when she logged in and caught up with what we were discussing, she tells us she's into choking. I won't bore you with all the details but this is a comment she made that I haven't forgotten, "There's no bigger high in the world than being partially unconscious and having a strong orgasm at the same time. The euphoria of feeling oxygen come back into your lungs while you're basking in the afterglow of sex is a very intimate and powerful experience." :blinkwide: That was the most creepiest thing I had ever read at that time.
It's called autoerotic asphyxiation.
Da
Exactly.
I've even heard of cases of celebrities accidentally killing themselves because they tied a belt around their neck while masturbating and later couldn't get it off.
From my experience, the woman from your chat room wasn't wrong actually. I don't like choking or being choked, but if you manage to take the air in a couple of moments before an orgasm and hold your breath just long enough to get your heart pumping faster, you will experience a much stronger orgasm. The release is just otherworldly.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 14 Feb 2025, 09:00

DazzlingNova wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 19:26
Guest wrote:
11 Feb 2025, 08:23
choking. it is weird to me. does not make me hornier AT ALL. at some point it became toxic and i over exaggerated and almost went over board... we split. best decision EVER
I'm glad you were able to get out of that relationship anon. Since we're on the subject of choking, I remember a woman from several years ago who was a member of the same server room as myself. She was divorced and in her early 40s. One day the other women in the group wanted to share their "kinks." There wasn't anything said that I would consider to be outlandish but when she logged in and caught up with what we were discussing, she tells us she's into choking. I won't bore you with all the details but this is a comment she made that I haven't forgotten, "There's no bigger high in the world than being partially unconscious and having a strong orgasm at the same time. The euphoria of feeling oxygen come back into your lungs while you're basking in the afterglow of sex is a very intimate and powerful experience." :blinkwide: That was the most creepiest thing I had ever read at that time.
It's called autoerotic asphyxiation.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 14 Feb 2025, 02:23

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:54
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:17
Is it weird not to be into dildos at all? I don't see anything wrong with them, but it does nothing for me and I don't like using it on anyone else either. I'm sure some people will see that as prudish, but is it a dealbreaker for most lesbians out there?
No not weird at all or a dealbreaker. None of the women i dated are into them and i dont care about them either. Pretending most lesbians are into dildos or strap, is an internet thing and is obviously pushed by you-know-whos (none lesbians of every colour)
x2 I'm a feminine lesbian who sometimes/few times like strap-on but it's just something extra, depending on rare mood, that not only I can live without but even don't think about in my mind at all. So almost all sex life in relationships, we're only happy, crave, need each other's body and nothing else.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 21:01

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 20:13
DazzlingNova wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 20:03
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
I hope you are in a better place in your life/relationship now anon :hug: It's hard to really talk out/convey your feelings to someone who is quick to get angry/short-tempered.
Things got real bad and rough for me for years due to that relationship and it's sad I'm still dealing with the impacts of it despite undergoing therapy which hasn't really helped much to be honest.
That doesn't make you look sad to me anon. There is no certain timeframe for healing, everybody is different. Some heal fast while others need a longer time. Since things were that bad for that long it's understandable that it will take quite a bit of time for you but that isn't a bad thing. Therapy just doesn't work for everyone, and you shouldn't feel defeated (not saying you do) that it's not. Maybe there's some other method that will help you. I'm truly sorry that happened to you, especially with your ex being your first, but I hope something positive comes along that will really work so you can properly heal and move forward with your life friend :heart:

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 20:36

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 20:02
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:52
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
It's an anon forum, if you want to talk it out here it would definitely be the OPs topic.
Do you mean talk only about OP's experience/situation here?
No, sorry, I was just saying if you wanted to talk about your experience it's as good a place as any, because it's anonymous and is pretty much spot on topic.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 20:17

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 20:02
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:52
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
It's an anon forum, if you want to talk it out here it would definitely be the OPs topic.
Do you mean talk only about OP's experience/situation here?
She's talking about the bolded. If she is comfortable/ready to discuss her experiences I don't mind. Who knows, reading all the other women's stories might give her a little confidence to maybe consider it.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 20:13

DazzlingNova wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 20:03
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
I hope you are in a better place in your life/relationship now anon :hug: It's hard to really talk out/convey your feelings to someone who is quick to get angry/short-tempered.
Things got real bad and rough for me for years due to that relationship and it's sad I'm still dealing with the impacts of it despite undergoing therapy which hasn't really helped much to be honest.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 20:03

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
I hope you are in a better place in your life/relationship now anon :hug: It's hard to really talk out/convey your feelings to someone who is quick to get angry/short-tempered.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 20:02

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:52
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
It's an anon forum, if you want to talk it out here it would definitely be the OPs topic.
Do you mean talk only about OP's experience/situation here?

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 19:52

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 19:03
This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.
It's an anon forum, if you want to talk it out here it would definitely be the OPs topic.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 19:48

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:17
Is it weird not to be into dildos at all? I don't see anything wrong with them, but it does nothing for me and I don't like using it on anyone else either. I'm sure some people will see that as prudish, but is it a dealbreaker for most lesbians out there?
Nope, common enough. Then there are degrees - some women are fine with non realistic or stylized ones, but not others, which is why you see them in fun shapes and colors now. Some aren't cool with any penetration. Definitely not a deal breaker.

Speaking personally, a dildo specifically does nothing for me on its own, unless if I can use it as resistance during something else. Vibrators are okay, but mostly the same, they're good to amp up something else but just a waste of time by themselves.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 19:47

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:17
Is it weird not to be into dildos at all? I don't see anything wrong with them, but it does nothing for me and I don't like using it on anyone else either. I'm sure some people will see that as prudish, but is it a dealbreaker for most lesbians out there?
Not to me. I don't like them at all either. They make me highly uncomfortable, because it triggers me emotionally (not in anger or any emotion similar to/like that). I agree, there's nothing wrong with the women who like to incorporate them, but I have no interest whatsoever (even if they weren't a trigger). In my opinion, it doesn't make someone a prude (not talking about you anon, just referencing the "some people"), because they are comfortable with/know their likes/wants. Hmm, it's only a deal breaker if she wants me to use it on her/vice versa. If she uses them for "personal time/stress relief" that's fine, but I just can't have them anywhere near me/in my home.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 19:03

This thread is reminding of my experiences with an ex gf who was my first in everything (I wasn't her first though) that I'm scared to think about but also fear maybe I overreacted or should have communicated but i was just ao afraid of how she would react or assume things (again) incorrectly.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 18:59

My curiosity got the best of me so I tried to google it but all I got was a lot of porn videos and links to lack of sensation problem after giving birth and not much else that could serve this particular educational purpose. So for us newbies who, until yesterday, had no idea that vagina widening was a thing, I was wondering if you could shine some more light on that. For example, what's purpose of that, some women get off on that or it makes it easier afterwards to do other things or? Psychologically does it come down to marking a territory like men do with their virgin-obsession or dominating or degrading a partner? What are the consequences your friend suffered, like is the whole thing reversible after a while or not? Was she struggling mentally because she felt humiliated afterwards or was it due to suffering physical consequences? As I take it, it's a process and not a one-time thing? For the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why would anyone want to hate female body so much
I want to disclaimer this so if anyone is triggered/uncomfortable, I kindly ask you to read no further or make any unnecessary comments that doesn’t go along with what’s being discussed/asked, thank you. Please excuse any typos.

This post might get kinda long so I’ll spoiler most of it. Eventually my curiosity got the better of me too anon. I just didn’t understand why there were women who wanted to do that either, so one night (in that same chatroom) I decided to ask a woman (I’ll call her Diane so it doesn’t get confusing) who was into it (which wasn’t so easy).

what's purpose of that, some women get off on that or it makes it easier afterwards to do other things or?

Psychologically does it come down to marking a territory like men do with their virgin-obsession or dominating or degrading a partner?

What are the consequences your friend suffered, like is the whole thing reversible after a while or not? Was she struggling mentally because she felt humiliated afterwards or was it due to suffering physical consequences? As I take it, it's a process and not a one-time thing?

For the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why would anyone want to hate female body so much


For the women like Diane they don’t see it that way, which I feel make up the very smallest percentage. I think the majority of them hate themselves/bodies and want to make their “outside” look like a physical manifestation of their inside, so who better than to “nurture/enhance” those negative feelings/thoughts than misogynist and weird narcissist/master manipulators.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 18:54

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 18:17
Is it weird not to be into dildos at all? I don't see anything wrong with them, but it does nothing for me and I don't like using it on anyone else either. I'm sure some people will see that as prudish, but is it a dealbreaker for most lesbians out there?
No not weird at all or a dealbreaker. None of the women i dated are into them and i dont care about them either. Pretending most lesbians are into dildos or strap, is an internet thing and is obviously pushed by you-know-whos (none lesbians of every colour)

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 18:17

Is it weird not to be into dildos at all? I don't see anything wrong with them, but it does nothing for me and I don't like using it on anyone else either. I'm sure some people will see that as prudish, but is it a dealbreaker for most lesbians out there?

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 18:04

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 17:44
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 17:23
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 16:44
I'm a bit wary of women who have rigid, highly specific kinks they can’t live without, especially when they fixate on body parts or porn-inspired techniques.
I get why L Chat/the internet discusses this stuff in extremes, but tbh I think that's rare. Lots of people are into stuff their partners aren't and either compromise or put it aside. Like, if your partner's really not into something it's not really fun anyway. It would be like being crazy into Disney and taking your Disney hating GF to Disneyworld even though she'd be miserable the whole time, neither of you will enjoy it as much as just going to a nice restaurant.
DA
I think this is a way to trivialize it, anon. I believe it's about sexual compatibility, which is also one of the aspects of relationships. Same as being emotionally compatible, for instance. Therefore, while we might've gone to extremes here, regular things in sex can be a problem for one partner, while another one thinks it's a part of sex they can't leave aside or compromise, as you suggest. Some lesbians don't like penetration and never practice it. If they end up with someone who sees it as a way to "become one", so to speak, it could be a problem. I, for example, don't like oral sex. I am a goldstar lesbian who doesn't like giving oral sex. If my partners found it to be an indispensable part of our sexual relationship that they couldn't be without, I'd say compromise wouldn't get us far. I could try to do it for my partner, because I love her and I want her to feel happy and satisfied, but then we're back to square one and beginning of this topic where I'm just doing something I don't like to please my partner and wouldn't necessarily do on my own.
There are plenty of deal breakers, no question, but L Chat is very black and white about stuff in ways that don't really work IRL.

Being into oral or not is a biggie to get right, you definitely need to both know where you stand.

Being into, idk, having your GF keeping a pair of sneakers on in bed or calling you Marybeth Jenkins or something, not so much. You can compromise on that stuff, either by putting it aside or by humoring each other now and then. People's weird little things like that aren't always extreme enough to be a relationship ender.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 17:44

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 17:23
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 16:44
I'm a bit wary of women who have rigid, highly specific kinks they can’t live without, especially when they fixate on body parts or porn-inspired techniques.
I get why L Chat/the internet discusses this stuff in extremes, but tbh I think that's rare. Lots of people are into stuff their partners aren't and either compromise or put it aside. Like, if your partner's really not into something it's not really fun anyway. It would be like being crazy into Disney and taking your Disney hating GF to Disneyworld even though she'd be miserable the whole time, neither of you will enjoy it as much as just going to a nice restaurant.
DA
I think this is a way to trivialize it, anon. I believe it's about sexual compatibility, which is also one of the aspects of relationships. Same as being emotionally compatible, for instance. Therefore, while we might've gone to extremes here, regular things in sex can be a problem for one partner, while another one thinks it's a part of sex they can't leave aside or compromise, as you suggest. Some lesbians don't like penetration and never practice it. If they end up with someone who sees it as a way to "become one", so to speak, it could be a problem. I, for example, don't like oral sex. I am a goldstar lesbian who doesn't like giving oral sex. If my partners found it to be an indispensable part of our sexual relationship that they couldn't be without, I'd say compromise wouldn't get us far. I could try to do it for my partner, because I love her and I want her to feel happy and satisfied, but then we're back to square one and beginning of this topic where I'm just doing something I don't like to please my partner and wouldn't necessarily do on my own.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 17:23

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 16:44
I'm a bit wary of women who have rigid, highly specific kinks they can’t live without, especially when they fixate on body parts or porn-inspired techniques.
I get why L Chat/the internet discusses this stuff in extremes, but tbh I think that's rare. Lots of people are into stuff their partners aren't and either compromise or put it aside. Like, if your partner's really not into something it's not really fun anyway. It would be like being crazy into Disney and taking your Disney hating GF to Disneyworld even though she'd be miserable the whole time, neither of you will enjoy it as much as just going to a nice restaurant.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 16:44

I'm a bit wary of women who have rigid, highly specific kinks they can’t live without, especially when they fixate on body parts or porn-inspired techniques.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 15:59

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 15:46
It's just a sacrifice you have to make I guess, sometimes you have to choose between death and sex, what can you do? 008
:lol: This anon's living fast.

No, really though, you do just get a lot less squeamish about body stuff with experience generally. Especially if you're with the same partner a while, their body starts to feel like home rather than a hotel room.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 15:52

I find it really interesting to hear people talk about why they like something I'm not into. It's just interesting insight.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 15:46

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 13:06
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 13:03
This thread is full of male arselickers...
Here anon, I have something your speed.

DA Lmao, thank you, I needed that chuckle :lol:

Also
Yeah even with great anal hygiene the bacteria+ is there. What about transferring it to your/her tongue...?
It's just a sacrifice you have to make I guess, sometimes you have to choose between death and sex, what can you do? 008

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 15:36

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 03:48
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:50
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:25
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 20:22
Any kind of butt stuff is a definite no for me. I had one gf who really tried to convince me to give it a try up to the point where i felt put under pressure and another gf who also was Fond of my boundaries in that regard.
I appreciate your perspective on this as I'm exploring a rimming fanfic prompt and keep wondering if writing it is going to isolate my regular reader base bc I realized I have zero idea what other lesbians tend to think about regarding this stuff -- I can definitely see why women wouldn't enjoy anal penetration of any kind, but I think rimming is generally pretty safe in terms of peoples likes (like i'm into it myself for example). But ofc it can vary from person to person, so some wouldn't like any ass stuff period, and that's normal.

Anyways, this is an interesting thread to be sure!
I wasn't into it at all but I read a fic I won't mention once that handled it really well, and it was like watching one of those docs about an incredibly niche smalltown competition made with such love for the game that you look at the whole thing differently afterwards. :nails:

DA
Lmao thank you for the input, that gives me encouragement -- I think I will go ahead and write it after all, and shall report back here about how it went if this thread is still up by then (I suspect it's gonna take me a few months since I have a different fic update to write still :dramaqueen:). Definitely treating some of these sorts of topics with love and attention to detail in written fiction can really change perspectives, I agree!

Thanks for the interesting thread, Nova!
Good luck on your stories anon. I hope all your readers like them. You're welcome ^_^

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 13:42

DazzlingNova wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:37
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 23:28
Reading some of your comments, I had no idea some of these things even existed. Like this whole vagina widening thing, I am 37 and never knew that existed. And I didn't spend last fifteen years of my life in a monastery, I swear :blinkwide:
It does make me sad seeing/reading how some women will use the same pattern that men do to manipulate their gfs to do stuff they wouldn't normally feel comfortable doing. And that's why I think it's important to talk about it.

I can't say I was ever pressured to do anything but I tend to have long term relationships where I'm able to gradually develop confidence and entirely give myself away. So first it will all start a bit on vanilla side and over time we'll talk about spicying things up. I always believed my partners, I knew they wouldn't hurt me and everything was discussed previously.

One thing that wasn't a trauma but just something I wasn't really into was with an ex who liked very raw sex. She liked to use a lot of toys and always encouraged me to be very rough. I never enjoyed this so I was happy when we broke up. I understand we are all different but I find no pleasure in degrading, causing pain or holding complete power over someone during sex. Light bondage and games are fun but anything more extreme is not my cup of tea. Also not being able to have sex without introducing toys felt like all the intimacy between us was lost. Most of the times it looked like a hatefuck and after it I didn't feel satisfied but wasted and spent.
I unfortunately got exposed to "vagina widening" when I entered into my first lesbian chatroom a couple of months after turning 19. It is sad and abusive on top of that. I agree, talking is good for the honest people who want an honest relationship. It's upsetting when the narcissistic manipulators who wear a carefully crafted, dutifully planned disguise cross paths with good people and draw them into their web.

I see nothing wrong with the vanilla approach and gradually spicing it up a bit. That builds good foundation and trust. It looks like most of your partners have been caring and understanding so I'm glad you were able to have that with them. Ahh I see. Unfortunately I've crossed paths with the "raw rough sex toy loving" women (stories for another time) as well. Good grief. I'm happy you were able to get away from her anon. There are things I don't mind, even a few new things but extreme stuff no thank you.
My curiosity got the best of me so I tried to google it but all I got was a lot of porn videos and links to lack of sensation problem after giving birth and not much else that could serve this particular educational purpose. So for us newbies who, until yesterday, had no idea that vagina widening was a thing, I was wondering if you could shine some more light on that. For example, what's purpose of that, some women get off on that or it makes it easier afterwards to do other things or? Psychologically does it come down to marking a territory like men do with their virgin-obsession or dominating or degrading a partner? What are the consequences your friend suffered, like is the whole thing reversible after a while or not? Was she struggling mentally because she felt humiliated afterwards or was it due to suffering physical consequences? As I take it, it's a process and not a one-time thing? For the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why would anyone want to hate female body so much

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 13:06

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 13:03
This thread is full of male arselickers...
Here anon, I have something your speed.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 13:03

This thread is full of male arselickers...

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 05:44

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 05:26
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 04:42
Are you doing that stuff with dental dam?....
Are you talking rimming? As long as the area is clean, it's safe for your mouth to be there. The only thing to worry about is transferring the bacteria from the anus to the vagina — it's why they recommend not fingering someones anus and then fingering their vagina immediately afterwards with the same hand, unless it's been cleaned.

Dental dams scare me tbh lol
Yeah even with great anal hygiene the bacteria+ is there. What about transferring it to your/her tongue...?

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 05:26

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 04:42
Are you doing that stuff with dental dam?....
Are you talking rimming? As long as the area is clean, it's safe for your mouth to be there. The only thing to worry about is transferring the bacteria from the anus to the vagina — it's why they recommend not fingering someones anus and then fingering their vagina immediately afterwards with the same hand, unless it's been cleaned.

Dental dams scare me tbh lol

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 04:42

Are you doing that stuff with dental dam?....

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 04:01

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 03:48
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:50
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:25
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 20:22
Any kind of butt stuff is a definite no for me. I had one gf who really tried to convince me to give it a try up to the point where i felt put under pressure and another gf who also was Fond of my boundaries in that regard.
I appreciate your perspective on this as I'm exploring a rimming fanfic prompt and keep wondering if writing it is going to isolate my regular reader base bc I realized I have zero idea what other lesbians tend to think about regarding this stuff -- I can definitely see why women wouldn't enjoy anal penetration of any kind, but I think rimming is generally pretty safe in terms of peoples likes (like i'm into it myself for example). But ofc it can vary from person to person, so some wouldn't like any ass stuff period, and that's normal.

Anyways, this is an interesting thread to be sure!
I wasn't into it at all but I read a fic I won't mention once that handled it really well, and it was like watching one of those docs about an incredibly niche smalltown competition made with such love for the game that you look at the whole thing differently afterwards. :nails:

DA
Lmao thank you for the input, that gives me encouragement -- I think I will go ahead and write it after all, and shall report back here about how it went if this thread is still up by then (I suspect it's gonna take me a few months since I have a different fic update to write still :dramaqueen:). Definitely treating some of these sorts of topics with love and attention to detail in written fiction can really change perspectives, I agree!

Thanks for the interesting thread, Nova!

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 03:48

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:50
Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:25
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 20:22
Any kind of butt stuff is a definite no for me. I had one gf who really tried to convince me to give it a try up to the point where i felt put under pressure and another gf who also was Fond of my boundaries in that regard.
I appreciate your perspective on this as I'm exploring a rimming fanfic prompt and keep wondering if writing it is going to isolate my regular reader base bc I realized I have zero idea what other lesbians tend to think about regarding this stuff -- I can definitely see why women wouldn't enjoy anal penetration of any kind, but I think rimming is generally pretty safe in terms of peoples likes (like i'm into it myself for example). But ofc it can vary from person to person, so some wouldn't like any ass stuff period, and that's normal.

Anyways, this is an interesting thread to be sure!
I wasn't into it at all but I read a fic I won't mention once that handled it really well, and it was like watching one of those docs about an incredibly niche smalltown competition made with such love for the game that you look at the whole thing differently afterwards. :nails:

DA
Lmao thank you for the input, that gives me encouragement -- I think I will go ahead and write it after all, and shall report back here about how it went if this thread is still up by then (I suspect it's gonna take me a few months since I have a different fic update to write still :dramaqueen:). Definitely treating some of these sorts of topics with love and attention to detail in written fiction can really change perspectives, I agree!

Thanks for the interesting thread, Nova!

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 01:53

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:13
Impressed that, despite a rocky start, L Chat seems to be managing to have a thread about sex that isn't going to be Elizabeth'd to death. It's an important subject and I wish this board was better about engaging with it, because lord knows there's no point bringing it up in any other "lesbian" space.

Kudos DN.
Indeed, there really isn't. This is the only forum where I feel comfortable discussing lesbian topics. I figure since we can talk about the things we like/enjoy about sex, how about we talk about the things that have made us feel uncomfortable about sex that we've experienced with current/past girlfriends/women. Thanks anon. I hope this thread is not only informative but also helpful.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 01:50

Guest wrote:
13 Feb 2025, 01:25
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 20:22
Any kind of butt stuff is a definite no for me. I had one gf who really tried to convince me to give it a try up to the point where i felt put under pressure and another gf who also was Fond of my boundaries in that regard.
I appreciate your perspective on this as I'm exploring a rimming fanfic prompt and keep wondering if writing it is going to isolate my regular reader base bc I realized I have zero idea what other lesbians tend to think about regarding this stuff -- I can definitely see why women wouldn't enjoy anal penetration of any kind, but I think rimming is generally pretty safe in terms of peoples likes (like i'm into it myself for example). But ofc it can vary from person to person, so some wouldn't like any ass stuff period, and that's normal.

Anyways, this is an interesting thread to be sure!
I wasn't into it at all but I read a fic I won't mention once that handled it really well, and it was like watching one of those docs about an incredibly niche smalltown competition made with such love for the game that you look at the whole thing differently afterwards. :nails:

DA

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by DazzlingNova » 13 Feb 2025, 01:37

Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 23:28
Reading some of your comments, I had no idea some of these things even existed. Like this whole vagina widening thing, I am 37 and never knew that existed. And I didn't spend last fifteen years of my life in a monastery, I swear :blinkwide:
It does make me sad seeing/reading how some women will use the same pattern that men do to manipulate their gfs to do stuff they wouldn't normally feel comfortable doing. And that's why I think it's important to talk about it.

I can't say I was ever pressured to do anything but I tend to have long term relationships where I'm able to gradually develop confidence and entirely give myself away. So first it will all start a bit on vanilla side and over time we'll talk about spicying things up. I always believed my partners, I knew they wouldn't hurt me and everything was discussed previously.

One thing that wasn't a trauma but just something I wasn't really into was with an ex who liked very raw sex. She liked to use a lot of toys and always encouraged me to be very rough. I never enjoyed this so I was happy when we broke up. I understand we are all different but I find no pleasure in degrading, causing pain or holding complete power over someone during sex. Light bondage and games are fun but anything more extreme is not my cup of tea. Also not being able to have sex without introducing toys felt like all the intimacy between us was lost. Most of the times it looked like a hatefuck and after it I didn't feel satisfied but wasted and spent.
I unfortunately got exposed to "vagina widening" when I entered into my first lesbian chatroom a couple of months after turning 19. It is sad and abusive on top of that. I agree, talking is good for the honest people who want an honest relationship. It's upsetting when the narcissistic manipulators who wear a carefully crafted, dutifully planned disguise cross paths with good people and draw them into their web.

I see nothing wrong with the vanilla approach and gradually spicing it up a bit. That builds good foundation and trust. It looks like most of your partners have been caring and understanding so I'm glad you were able to have that with them. Ahh I see. Unfortunately I've crossed paths with the "raw rough sex toy loving" women (stories for another time) as well. Good grief. I'm happy you were able to get away from her anon. There are things I don't mind, even a few new things but extreme stuff no thank you.

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 01:25

Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 20:22
Any kind of butt stuff is a definite no for me. I had one gf who really tried to convince me to give it a try up to the point where i felt put under pressure and another gf who also was Fond of my boundaries in that regard.
I appreciate your perspective on this as I'm exploring a rimming fanfic prompt and keep wondering if writing it is going to isolate my regular reader base bc I realized I have zero idea what other lesbians tend to think about regarding this stuff -- I can definitely see why women wouldn't enjoy anal penetration of any kind, but I think rimming is generally pretty safe in terms of peoples likes (like i'm into it myself for example). But ofc it can vary from person to person, so some wouldn't like any ass stuff period, and that's normal.

Anyways, this is an interesting thread to be sure!

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 01:18

Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 19:16
You are a dating a wannabe man. And you deserve it cause obviously you like men. Many men are obsessed with that widening of vagina stuff.
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 19:21
Sorry but your friend is a loser and should just date men at this point. Wannabe men and women who love these wannabe males give lesbians a bad rep. Some of us lesbians do actually love women you know.
Guest wrote:
12 Feb 2025, 19:32
That wannabe male is not loyal btw. If they were loyal they would respect your wishes. Typical male behaviour to manipulate you into doing what they want by playing nice. Lesbians who date ugly mascs deserve the Ill treatment they get from said ugly mascs. You all ain’t even lesbian imo. One of you wants to be a man and the other (aka you) is love with masculinity :mask:

Men and men lite always get weird and territorial with sex. Like they were the one to widen your pussy and put claim on it. Ugly ugly stuff where they once again don’t see woman as a person but a trophy to possess. And these wanna male lovers like you and dazzlingnovas friend play into that same ugly hetro dynamic in “lesbian” relationships too. You all deserve each other and stay away from actual women who are happy being women and loving actual women
x1000 Wtf Indeed :mask:

Re: Uncomfortable Sexual Situations

by Guest » 13 Feb 2025, 01:13

Impressed that, despite a rocky start, L Chat seems to be managing to have a thread about sex that isn't going to be Elizabeth'd to death. It's an important subject and I wish this board was better about engaging with it, because lord knows there's no point bringing it up in any other "lesbian" space.

Kudos DN.

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